SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Welcome, I'm Neil McCutcheon and I'm with my friend Bernardo Morales and we talk about Beatles albums and this is number 14, I believe, episode 14.

SPEAKER_00: 0:13

Wow, 14 already.

SPEAKER_01: 0:17

Yeah, I think so. And this week we have decided to do Rubber Soul.

SPEAKER_00: 0:25

Yeah, it's a very, very good album. It's one of my favourite Beatle albums, I have to say. How do you feel about it?

SPEAKER_01: 0:34

I quite like it. I've been getting to know it more this week. I don't think it's all killer, no filler. But I have met one of our ex-colleagues actually in Budapest. This was her favourite Beatles album and I gave her my original CD copy.

SPEAKER_00: 0:53

Wow, the 1987 one.

SPEAKER_01: 0:56

Yeah, just because I'd replaced it. uh with the new remix or the yeah well remix remaster you can tell me all about that i'm kind of a little bit confused

SPEAKER_00: 1:08

yeah i think that was a remaster wasn't it the 2009 it

SPEAKER_01: 1:14

was a remaster of the 1987 And why did George Martin remix this one but not the others in 1987? I don't

SPEAKER_00: 1:25

know. Do you know why? No, I have no idea. He remixed this one and Help. Those are the two that he remixed. And they were highly criticized at the time. And they still kind of are. And the only way currently to get the original stereo mix on CD is to buy the mono box set. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:46

But why would you want it?

SPEAKER_00: 1:49

Apparently, he added digital reverb, a lot of digital reverb to some of the tracks. But the thing is, I'm so used to these versions already that it's hard for me to actually listen to the other ones.

SPEAKER_01: 2:03

This is a good version, but I'm going to ask you about the remix later because there's a kind of anomaly with Drive My Car. Do you know what it is? I have no idea. Okay, we'll get to that later. So let's just talk about this album. One of the most interesting things I read about it, obviously it's the bridge between the early Beatles pop songs and later Beatles sonic experiments. And here they are on the edge, right? Not knowing exactly where to go. And the lyrics are a little bit more interesting too, a little bit deeper. And Emily Mackay, a music journalist from NME, she said that rather than being about, you know, I want to hold your hand and things like that, that sort of gauche you know, experiments with love, you know. These songs are about relationships with, I quote, liberated independent women, failed one night stands and superficial scene girls. So really they started, and that's one impression I get from this album. The relationships are all, you know, there's some kind of imbalance or there's some kind of story or some kind of trouble, but they're proper songs about, you know, real people not just it's not just the early bloom of first love here right

SPEAKER_00: 3:28

yeah you can you can start seeing that they started taking songwriting i don't want to say a little bit more seriously because i think that they always took songwriting very seriously but they were writing more complicated songs i can see that this is kind of when when they started discovering bob dylan and and they got really into his music um and they wanted to write kind of more folky stuff Definitely,

SPEAKER_01: 3:49

yeah, definitely. And there's some humour here, there's some sinister edges here, and I think their personalities are coming out more, all of the writers. Ringo even gets a credit here, but it's not a very good one.

SPEAKER_00: 4:05

Yeah. Well, should we start with that song?

SPEAKER_01: 4:13

Let's see, I just want to say more about the album. Oh, yeah, about the album, of course. then we can go on to that one so this is a quotation from Mark Lewis and he says on this album well Dylan turned them on to marijuana in 1964 so this is their pot album and Mark Lewis says that the vision the articulation and the knowingness are all rooted in the weed so you can You can tell that there's been some pot smoking on this album.

SPEAKER_00: 4:49

You can, and you can tell in all the albums after, for sale, that they were taking more drugs than they were before, I guess, or that drugs were influencing the way they were writing music a little bit more. I would say that Revolver is more of a pot album than Rubber Soul. Yeah, that's because they've taken more pot. Because they've taken more, and Paul wrote Got To Get You Into My Life, which is an ode to pot. Um, right

SPEAKER_01: 5:16

yeah but you can hear it you can hear it happening in this album and the other thing in this album is just the speed at which they had to work so they come into the studio in early October

SPEAKER_03: 5:28

and

SPEAKER_01: 5:30

most of the recording is done in October and November because the album comes out on the 3rd of December so they're really working fast and this is something else something about the chronology again this is from Mark Lewison but it's interesting now Now one can see when you look at the chronology in the studio sessions, John revealed In My Life to his bandmates on a Monday. They took Tuesday off and on Wednesday, Paul brought in We Can Work It Out. John then goes home to Weybridge and comes in the following afternoon with Nowhere Man. So they write songs at a phenomenal rate. Because I think when they went into the studio, they didn't have much. So they were having to write. And there's tremendous competition between John and Paul on this album. And it's really a really good album for John. And he has so many great songs on it. Norwegian Wood Girl, In My Life, Nowhere Man, some of his best.

SPEAKER_00: 6:31

Yeah, that's true. I think that at the time they were so scared of not having enough material for Robber's Soul that I think they finished Wait, which I guess was, I think it was recorded during the help sessions. And they did this song called 12 Bar Original, which I think you can find in the anthology, thinking they wouldn't have enough material for the album.

SPEAKER_01: 6:54

It's quite good that they didn't include that one, probably.

SPEAKER_00: 6:57

Yeah, that's not a very good one, actually.

SPEAKER_01: 7:00

And did you know how it was received at the time? Do you know this? It was praised at the time, wasn't it? Well, not completely. So both Melody Maker and Record Mirror, which were, I guess, the most important music papers in Britain, both of them said it wasn't their best record. Melody Maker said it was a bit subdued. And I had a colleague, my first employer, and he was, you know, he'd been around in the 60s, a young, young guy in the 60s. And he said and maintains to this day that Rubber Soul was boring. So there you go. Some people are agnostics.

SPEAKER_00: 7:43

Yeah, well, from what I've read, it was Alan Evans from Enemy wrote that they're still finding different ways to make us enjoy listening to them. Yeah, and

SPEAKER_01: 7:56

it's full of variety, this album, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 8:01

And we have to say, this is the album that inspired Brian Wilson to record Pet Sounds. Of

SPEAKER_01: 8:07

course. Just before we dive in... to the album itself. Do you want to say something about the US version? Because you alerted me to that.

SPEAKER_00: 8:17

Yeah, well, the first version I ever got of this album was an LP that I got in a second-hand store. And it was the American version. And when I got the actual CD, the 1987 CD, I was surprised that the tracklist was completely different. I was so used to the American tracklisting. So the official release, the British release, had Drive My Car, Norwegian would you won't see me nowhere man think for yourself the word Michelle what goes on girl I'm looking through you in my life wait and if I needed someone and run for your life and the American version was slightly different instead of having 14 tracks it only had 12 and it started with I've just seen a face which I have to say it's a great opening track yes Norwegian would you won't see me think for yourself the word Michelle it's only love which was in in the UK version of help I girl I'm looking through you in my life wait and run for your life

SPEAKER_01: 9:16

and that's better because it doesn't have what goes on

SPEAKER_00: 9:20

it doesn't have what goes on which I want to talk about I actually kind of like that song it doesn't have it and it's more foxy as well because it doesn't have drive my car it doesn't have if I needed someone so kind of the rockers were taken off

SPEAKER_01: 9:35

it's got a kind of unity doesn't it

SPEAKER_00: 9:37

yeah so it's more cohesive And this is the version that inspired Brian Wilson to write Pet Sounds, not the UK version.

SPEAKER_01: 9:46

Right. Yeah. So what goes on? I just think this is kind of filler. And I just I kind of feel really sorry for Ringo that, you know, I mean, they just gave him like a tough track here.

UNKNOWN: 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:06

It

SPEAKER_01: 10:06

was a song revived from the Quarrymen days because they needed to fill the album up. And yeah, I think it's not their best.

SPEAKER_00: 10:15

Yes, but it's a song that John must have liked because he wanted to record this song originally in the same session when they recorded One After 909 and George Martin didn't like it. So they didn't record it and he dug it back for this. So...

SPEAKER_01: 10:33

you want to play a little bit of it

SPEAKER_00: 10:36

i think let me see if i can find a demo because the demo has slightly different verses um okay let me show you

SPEAKER_03: 10:44

this is

SPEAKER_01: 11:13

that's better i know it's a little bit better isn't it it's really kind of country of western i think that's all right that's okay yeah

SPEAKER_00: 11:23

and

SPEAKER_01: 11:23

let me go on

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um and let me play the other one just one second

SPEAKER_01: 11:29

okay

SPEAKER_00: 11:33

here you

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go

SPEAKER_00: 12:09

harmonies in the background.

SPEAKER_02: 12:11

That's

SPEAKER_00: 12:16

probably enough. That's enough.

SPEAKER_01: 12:19

So this is credited to Leonard McCartney and Starkey, so that's a unique thing. So Ringo must have inputted something, lyrics maybe?

SPEAKER_00: 12:31

Maybe. Is

SPEAKER_01: 12:32

that

SPEAKER_00: 12:32

the first credit he got

SPEAKER_01: 12:33

with the Beatles? Yes. Yes, I think so, yeah. So, Let's talk about some of the amazing songs on this album. I got to start with Drive My Car because I just think it's an incredible track. And the more I hear it, the better it gets. Paul used to open his live sets with this. So the first time I saw Paul in the 90s, he opened with Drive My Car. And it's a superb opening track. And I've been listening to it again this week. And just tuning into John's harmony, I love his part. It's almost monotone, just one or two notes. And Paul's vocal is great, and they've really, really got something very funky going on here. The riff, there's a dual guitar bass riff, and I've always liked that. When you listen to that and tune into that, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00: 13:29

Yeah, and it's kind of when Paul's bass playing started getting a little bit more fancy, I guess, a little bit fancier. Yeah. because before it used to be very basic. And from Rubber Soul onwards, it started to become a little bit more sophisticated, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

I think there's more bass end as well, although we can't really hear it because this album doesn't benefit from the demixing that we've heard, but one day it will. But you can hear the bass.

SPEAKER_00: 14:01

Yes. And it's a lovely... tight arrangement. I think this is going to be the next box set. And certainly this song is going to benefit from a remix.

SPEAKER_01: 14:12

Yeah, for sure. And apparently this one's influenced by Otis Reddick. And I had a listen to Otis Reddick, Respect. And yeah, you can hear the similarities. I mean, they haven't stolen anything, but it does sound like something from American... soul that was going on at the time.

SPEAKER_00: 14:37

Yep. It's certainly a great song. It's a good rocker. And it's also a great way to start an album. So something that the American version and the UK version of the album have in common is that even though they have different tracks, the opening tracks are great.

SPEAKER_01: 14:52

Yeah. And it's the there's a female protagonist, right? She's going to be the star. And she's inviting the she's inviting the songwriters to to be the driver right so it's interesting it kind of subverts the expectations of uh like at that time in the 60s sort of gendered expectations so she's kind of calling the shots here

SPEAKER_00: 15:17

and also it's worth mentioning this is one of the of the um lyrics they found the most difficult to write together Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, apparently the chorus began with, you can buy me diamond rings. And they thought it was very cliche. And they had a writing session and they almost didn't manage to rewrite the lyrics until one of them became with the line, drive my car. And then from then on, it flowed quite easily.

SPEAKER_01: 15:47

The critic Kenneth Womack said that the lyrics were loaded with sexual innuendo. So there you are. Well, there you go. That's the pot album. Yeah. Do you want to play a bit of this? And then I'm going to ask you about the mix.

SPEAKER_00: 16:03

Yes. Let me play

SPEAKER_01: 16:04

a bit

SPEAKER_00: 16:05

of it.

SPEAKER_03: 16:12

I started to scream. Okay. Right,

SPEAKER_01: 16:43

it's just such a superb arrangement. Just be careful about the volume there. I think it's pushing it. Oh, was it too high? Not too high, but just pushing into the max. Okay. I think it's louder than our voices, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, I just wanted to say about the mix, there's something mysterious going on here because, you know, you've talked to me before about this album being panned left and right and sometimes it annoys you. Well, with this one, the vocal is in the center and I listen to all the other tracks and they're more or less a mix of left, right, panning with some some things are in both speakers but there's nothing that's dead center but for this the vocals dead center so i wonder if it was mixed separately or uh from the rest of the album it's a mystery i really don't know it's completely different from the rest of the album what's your next track

SPEAKER_00: 17:38

um let's talk about some of the acoustic ones um how about michelle

SPEAKER_01: 17:44

oh yeah no michelle what do you think of that

SPEAKER_00: 17:46

oh it's one of my all-time favorite beatle songs

SPEAKER_01: 17:51

And

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why do

SPEAKER_01: 17:52

you like it so much?

SPEAKER_00: 17:54

Well, my dad loved it. It was one of his all-time favorite Beatles songs. That and Twist and Shout were two of his favorite ones. And I just think it's... I love the melody. I think it's a bit of a different melody to what they had done up until that point. And then playing it on guitar is so difficult. It took me a while to learn it. It's got a

SPEAKER_01: 18:17

great acoustic line to open and really nice, really nice simple guitar part. And who wrote the harmonies? Was it Paul or was it George Martin? Because those harmonies are out of this world. Like the other week we were talking about here, there and everywhere, right? So this is the first time that they have harmonies like this. And I wonder if they cooperated in writing it with George Martin. I don't know because they're beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 18:44

They are lovely. I would say that was George Martin. He was a producer in the end, so it just makes sense that he was the one who would write

SPEAKER_01: 18:51

those things. It could have been. Sounds like somebody with a really musical ear. We used to sing this one at school, I remember, in the 70s when it was only a few years old. Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 19:04

But it is a beautiful song. And do you know anything about the story of the song?

SPEAKER_01: 19:12

I know that John... It was an early song from Quarrymen days that John wanted Paul to bring back. But obviously they reshaped it and they worked on it to arrange it. And I also know it's the first song that they did with bouncing. So that's... putting two tracks onto one because there weren't enough tracks i think they're recording with a four track at this time so this is the first song so i believe where they had to bounce things together to

SPEAKER_00: 19:47

make room for more instruments yeah the bass is also much nicer than what they've done um up until that point it's got a really nice bass a lovely

SPEAKER_01: 19:55

bass play play a bit of it

SPEAKER_00: 19:57

okay one second

SPEAKER_03: 20:09

Yeah, it's

SPEAKER_00: 20:37

lovely.

SPEAKER_01: 20:39

It's a great vocal, isn't it? It is a brilliant vocal, yes. So apparently John stole the I love you, I love you, I love you, or Paul, but perhaps John, stole it from I Put a Spell on You by Nina Simone, and I did listen to that, and yes... that was stolen.

SPEAKER_00: 21:01

Wow, I didn't know

SPEAKER_01: 21:02

that. It was a hit in the summer of that year. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 21:07

I didn't know that. Well, just my dad told me that song was extremely popular in Costa Rica when he was a kid. It was possibly a single? That's what I'm not sure of, whether it was a single or not, because was it released as a single?

SPEAKER_01: 21:22

I think it was a single in America. I got a feeling it was a single in the States, yeah. Apparently John blocked it from being a single in Britain because I think he was jealous.

SPEAKER_00: 21:34

Well, the B side would have been girl, I guess. Maybe.

SPEAKER_01: 21:40

Yes, because they're very much a partnership, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00: 21:42

Yeah, and something interesting. Michelle won the Grammy for Song of the Year in 1967.

SPEAKER_01: 21:50

Oh, really? Because it was very much covered, wasn't it? It was covered by the Sandpipers and a lot of bands at that time. Yeah. Because it's sort of timeless.

SPEAKER_00: 22:01

Funnily enough, that was the only time the Beatles got a Grammy for Record of the Year. Or Song of the Year,

SPEAKER_01: 22:07

sorry. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So they didn't get any Grammys for their albums?

SPEAKER_00: 22:13

I think they got Grammy for Sgt. Pepper. But, I mean, for Song of the Year... 1967 was Michelle. 68 was Up, Up and Away by Jimmy Webb. 1969 was Little Green Apples by Bobby Russell. And then... They've all disappeared. Yeah, and then disappeared. Joe South, 1970 with Games People Play. And then 71, which would have been the year of Let It Be. It was Paul Simon with Bridge Over Troubled Water.

SPEAKER_01: 22:39

Wow. Okay. So Beatles can't touch Beyonce anyway. No. For Grammys. I know. It's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. And this song had a bit of French in it, which Ivan Vaughan, Beatles friend, his wife was a French teacher, so she provided the French line. My parents used to criticize Paul's pronunciation here for the Tre Bien Ensemble, and it should have been Tre Bien, not Tre Bien. They were very fussy.

SPEAKER_00: 23:15

Yeah, I remember watching a YouTube video years ago saying that it sounds like Sunday monkeys won't play piano songs. Say that again. Sunday monkeys won't play piano songs. Brilliant. Does it sound like that? Let's take a look. Let's have a quick listen. You can do something. Sorry, that was driving my car again. Just one

SPEAKER_03: 23:39

second. You can do something.

SPEAKER_01: 23:47

I can sort of hear it. If you weren't expecting it to be French. And then, of course, John followed this up with Girl, which is just a fantastic song, one of his best, isn't

SPEAKER_00: 24:07

it? It is a great song that suffers from that horrible stereo panning so badly.

SPEAKER_01: 24:15

Yeah. I sort of don't notice that so much. I can just enjoy it without really noticing that. But you're right. It is panned left and right. Now, what do you think of the inhalation? What is that? Because I've read two interpretations of it.

SPEAKER_00: 24:32

Yeah. I

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

don't know, buddy. That's the song. So apparently, I read that it could be them inhaling pot. It was the month that they went to the palace to get their OBEs, and they're supposed to have smoked pot in the toilets of Buckingham Palace. But I've always thought it was a kind of lascivious, if that's how to pronounce it, and lustful about the girl.

SPEAKER_00: 24:58

That's what it sounds like. I think that would make more sense. I'm not too sure whether they smoked. potting the bathrooms at Buckingham Palace. Nor am I. But

SPEAKER_01: 25:07

this was the month

SPEAKER_00: 25:08

that they went. Yeah, but I don't think they did. I don't think they would have done

SPEAKER_01: 25:12

that. Do you know about the slightly naughty backing vocals in Girl? Of course you do. Yeah, the tidbit. Yeah. So they're just having lots and lots of fun here. And I just wonder who they wrote it to. I mean, it's a kind of ideal woman, right? I mean, John wasn't writing it to Cynthia. So is it a groupie? Who are they writing

SPEAKER_00: 25:34

it to? Who knows? Elvis Costello said that that's when he thought that the Beatles had really changed. Going from she loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, to was she told when she was young that pain would lead to pleasure? Did she understand it when they said that? So the lyric They're a bit more complicated.

SPEAKER_01: 25:54

There's a lot about pain and pleasure. And John said, I was just talking about Christianity and a thing like you have to be tortured to attain heaven. I'm only saying that I was talking about pain will lead to pleasure in girl. And that was sort of the Catholic Christian concept. Interesting. Because, you know, I never thought it was a song about God, but it's definitely got that idea of suffering because this woman is

SPEAKER_00: 26:23

aloof, right? yeah but great song um very fun to play on the guitar as well um and and yeah one of john's best as you said and to play with a capo like they did yes it's like capo on the eighth fret it's just really high up

SPEAKER_01: 26:41

wow because it's supposed to suggest bazookas and mandolins and uh apparently the music always a debt to music for Zorba the Greek. I haven't seen Zorba the Greek, but I think John was quite proud of the fact it sounded a little bit exotic.

SPEAKER_00: 26:58

Yeah, I wonder if he did that on purpose, if he put the capo on the eighth on purpose, or whether he wrote it kind of lower. Who knows? Yeah. John, play a bit of Girl. Should I play a bit of the, well, I'll play the version with the panning.

SPEAKER_03: 27:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:17

Is there anybody going to Listen to my story All about the girl who came to stay She's the kind of girl you want so much it makes you sorry Still you don't regret a single day

SPEAKER_00: 27:46

And this is where I start thinking that it's worth it to have a mono version of Rubber Soul. This is what it sounds like in mono.

SPEAKER_03: 27:54

Is there anybody going to listen to my story All about the girl who came to stay She's the kind of girl you want so much it makes you sorry Still you don't regret a single day there

SPEAKER_00: 28:24

you go it sounds a bit louder

SPEAKER_01: 28:27

yeah it's a nice mix have you got the mono version on vinyl or CD?

SPEAKER_00: 28:33

I have it on CD

SPEAKER_01: 28:35

okay

SPEAKER_00: 28:36

yeah it sounds great it does sound

SPEAKER_01: 28:37

louder

SPEAKER_00: 28:38

Yeah, there's a fun story with a mono version on CD because you can get the one on the American CDs, right? Usually these versions have the mono version and the stereo version on the same CD, right? And they released it in a box set called the Capital US Records or something.

SPEAKER_01: 28:58

Which you have.

SPEAKER_00: 28:59

Which I have, yeah. But the first version they released, they made a mistake. And instead of releasing the true mono version, it was like a fall down of the stereo. And then they had to re-release it properly with the proper mono mixes. And there is only one way to find out whether you have the right version or not. And how do you do that? Let me see if I can find it. It's with the track I'm Looking Through You. And the stereo version has a false start. So if you listen to the mono version and it has a false start, then it means that you have the wrong version.

SPEAKER_01: 29:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 29:37

And

SPEAKER_01: 29:37

have you got the wrong version or the right version?

SPEAKER_00: 29:39

I've got the right version. I was lucky when I bought it. But this is I'm Looking Through You in stereo with a false start.

SPEAKER_03: 30:00

I'm looking through you

SPEAKER_00: 30:03

So that's the stereo version, and the mono version doesn't have the false tab.

SPEAKER_01: 30:09

Yeah,

SPEAKER_03: 30:18

I've never heard that false tab

SPEAKER_00: 30:19

before. Anyway, so that's a funny story.

SPEAKER_01: 30:26

With I'm Looking Through You, I did feel that that suffered from the hard left-right panning. I thought it really did. I thought the guitars there sounded a bit thin. I mean, it's not a bad song, but I think it really needs a remix.

SPEAKER_00: 30:41

I think so. I think this is one of the songs that is in bad need of a remix. Yeah. Even the anthology version, I think, sounds better. And I think that was take one.

SPEAKER_01: 30:53

Okay. I'll have to go back and check that one out. Can you play a bit of the anthology version?

SPEAKER_00: 30:58

Yes, just one second. I think I have it here. One second. Because I have like six or seven versions of Robert's Soul. And I have to find the right one. Here it is. I'm looking through you. Take

SPEAKER_01: 31:20

one.

UNKNOWN: 31:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 31:39

It's just a

SPEAKER_00: 31:53

nicer mix.

SPEAKER_01: 31:57

Yeah, yeah. I recognise that one. I remember that one from listening to the anthology. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. I'm looking forward to the demixed version of that one for sure. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 32:12

They did something similar because I don't know if you remember, but maybe you don't remember, but a few years ago, I think it was in 2009 or 2010, they released a Beatles video game called Rock Band. And basically it's one of those kind of PlayStation games where you have a guitar controller and you play two songs. So they remixed some of the songs in Dolby. And some people took the video game and then took the audio out and they remixed them. And it sounds really nice. Ah, okay. I'll play a bit of I'm Looking Through You from that mix. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 32:51

One, two, three, four. I'm looking through So it

SPEAKER_00: 33:19

doesn't have that hard panning. And it sounds quite nice. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 33:25

it

SPEAKER_00: 33:26

does sound nice. Does that game still exist? It exists. I don't know whether people still play it. I bought it, actually. And I played it in 2009, but I haven't played it since.

SPEAKER_01: 33:39

I remember it came out at the same time as the box set. Yeah. Let's talk about Norwegian Woods because that is another fantastic song. And I remember a guy used to come onto the London Underground when I lived in London. And he always came on for months or years. I mean, he was always there. He used to come onto the Northern Lines. And he would always, and he'd say, here's a song. And it was always Norwegian Woodlike. He only knew one song. He did a really great version of it. Heard it so many times. But it's a brilliant song. And this is the first use of sitar in a pop song. Apparently David Crosby played some sitar to the Beatles in L.A. when they were visiting him, the late David Crosby, of course. and um and and they they put it on this track and then it became of course uh a cliche it was everywhere after that

SPEAKER_00: 34:39

yeah i thought that they had been introduced to the ctar um when they were recording help or they were shooting

SPEAKER_01: 34:46

possibly possibly Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 34:49

there was a scene with Indian musicians and I thought that's where George was introduced to the sitar. There was

SPEAKER_01: 34:55

certainly that kind of drone-like thing going on that time. I don't know if you know the Yardbirds For Your Love doesn't have a sitar in it, but it sounds drone-like. So, you know, this kind of sound was becoming fashionable.

SPEAKER_00: 35:09

It's kind of interesting that George decided to start using the sitar in a John song rather than in one of his songs.

SPEAKER_01: 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:18

Yeah, true. And it

SPEAKER_01: 35:19

must have sounded really surprising when it first came out.

SPEAKER_00: 35:22

Yeah. I wonder what they thought when he said, you know what? I'm just going to put a sitar here. What? Yeah. And you can hear the influence of Bob Dylan, I think, in this song very heavily.

SPEAKER_01: 35:39

Yeah, and he apparently replied in his song, Fourth Time Around, which made John Lennon really paranoid because it was called Fourth Time Around. So I played that. And yeah, it is a kind of, he's used that same melody to base his song on. It's definitely a sort of a steal.

SPEAKER_00: 36:00

Interestingly enough, George was very good friends with Bob Dylan. I mean, he was in the Travelling Wanderies. And I wonder whether John was.

SPEAKER_01: 36:10

I think they were rivals, kind of, and I think when they got together, there's that famous taxi ride they had in London in 64. I was going to say 65. No, 66. I'll say 66. And they got on quite well, apparently, once the ice was broken. But they were, I think, rivals. Apparently, Dylan wanted to be more of a pop star than he could ever be. And John wanted that serious kind of literary reputation that he kind of couldn't quite have. So they both wanted a bit of each other's style of fame.

SPEAKER_00: 36:48

yeah and he never collaborated with paul which i think is interesting as well

SPEAKER_01: 36:53

yeah what do you think of the lyrics on this one um what do you think of the last line um so i lit a fire um is it i mean did does he burn this girl's flat down or what well i think i mean it seems a bit drastic

SPEAKER_00: 37:11

well um i don't know if this is the song that comes after run for your life maybe because he either maybe maybe that girl was with another man maybe that girl ended up being with another man so he went and burned um her flat

SPEAKER_01: 37:28

he either burned her flat or else maybe he just smoked a big joint i can't work it out when i was a kid that used to puzzle me so i lit a fire You know, I remember my father said to me, that's very sinister. Saying, oh, is it?

SPEAKER_00: 37:41

Yeah. Well, I lit a fire. Isn't it good? Norwegian wood. It makes you feel that he actually did burn the place down. Yeah. And you would think that John's, his most aggressive songs are in this album.

SPEAKER_01: 37:56

Yeah, and this one is kind of about a one-night stand, but he was hiding that from Cynthia, so it was kind of a bit cryptic, this song.

SPEAKER_00: 38:09

Well, yeah, right. He was hiding it from Cynthia, so I'll write a song about it. Good job.

SPEAKER_01: 38:17

And a lovely collaborative effort with Paul as well, so the middle eight is Paul's.

SPEAKER_00: 38:23

yeah and the harmonies is really nice it's one of my favorite things for the song

SPEAKER_01: 38:27

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 38:28

yeah paul singing high and john singing low it just sounds really nice i'll play a bit could you yeah see if you could play that

SPEAKER_03: 38:43

bit stay and she told me to sit anywhere so I looked around and I noticed there wasn't a chair I sat on the road biding my time drinking her

SPEAKER_00: 39:13

wine the bass sounds lovely as well it sounds like a double bass almost

SPEAKER_01: 39:18

oh it's just a fantastic arrangement and it must have just been really surprising at the time I think just to hear that and of course the lyrics Ian Macdonald says that other bands are also pushing the boat out lyrics wise at this time like the stones with satisfaction and the animals kinks see my friends and the who any way any how anywhere so the Beatles were starting to think okay let's let's sort of experiment a little bit more with the lyrics, let's write about something a bit different, tell stories.

SPEAKER_00: 39:54

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And this is one of their best efforts, at least in this record.

SPEAKER_01: 40:01

It's superb, and it's one of the best. Again, this could be a lovely single, Drive My Car, Norwegian Wood, could have been a lovely single, but it goes in none of

SPEAKER_00: 40:13

these singles. You can't have two. Drive My Car is a Paul song, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 40:19

Yeah, but it would have been wonderful to have that. I think that would have been a wonderful single. But actually, the single that came out at the time, as was usual with them, was released on the same day as the album. It was We Can Work It Out and Daytripper. So the tracks weren't on the album, but they released them simultaneously. So those would have made the album even stronger had they been on it.

SPEAKER_00: 40:45

definitely it's the story of their lives i guess um if you think about sergeant pepper with penny lane and strawberry fields not being in the album i mean it would have been a much stronger record if they chucked um weight and what goes on and they put we can work it out and they tripper

SPEAKER_03: 41:03

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 41:04

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 41:05

yeah it's a shame why did they feel the need to do that and i guess they i mean it could I'm just thinking it profits I mean you know money they did have the Christmas number one single and album so there is an element of calculation in it

SPEAKER_00: 41:22

yeah I think so I think so but I still think that I mean the story goes that they were struggling to have enough material and in the end they released this single outside of the album and obviously they had enough material

SPEAKER_01: 41:36

yeah yeah they had enough material but they had to they had to There's a couple here that are fillers, as we've said. What's

SPEAKER_00: 41:45

next? Right. Let's talk about, well, I just mentioned Wait. Okay. Not the strongest track. Yeah, not the strongest track of the Beatles. It's never been one of my favorites. To me, when I first discovered this album and I played it, I remember this sounding to me like the most dated of tracks.

SPEAKER_01: 42:10

And that's because it came from the help sessions.

SPEAKER_00: 42:13

Well, I don't know. It just sounded very dated. Like if you listen to something like Norwegian Wood, well, I don't know if you could say it could be released today the same way, but Wait just sounded very 60s. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 42:26

I think that's partly because George is doing his thing with the volume switch there, which he used on Help. I mean, I love that sound, but it does sound dated now. And it's quite rough as well. George sounds, I want to say on this song, kind of uninterested.

SPEAKER_00: 42:45

Probably. And you can still hear some of the session from Help. I think the left speaker is the Help session and the right speaker is the Rubber Soul session. Well, they just overdubbed what they recorded before.

SPEAKER_01: 42:59

Where did you learn that? That's amazing. That's quite James Pottery.

SPEAKER_00: 43:03

Or the other way around. I can't remember where I heard it, actually. It must have been a few years ago. I'll play a bit of it. Here we go.

SPEAKER_03: 43:22

I'm coming back home. I've been away. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01: 43:44

I think Paul's middle eight rescues it quite a lot, a little bit like in things we said today. I think when he comes in, it sort of saves the song.

SPEAKER_00: 43:58

Yeah, definitely. That's the best part of the song. It reminds me a lot of The Word. If this had been a single, it would have probably been The Word and Wait.

SPEAKER_01: 44:07

okay yeah and the words another great track um wow what are we what are we gonna do next what

SPEAKER_00: 44:14

about in my life um i you could argue that's one of the best songs on the album if not the best song

SPEAKER_01: 44:21

and i've actually seen it uh ranked as the best song of all time by anybody i remember i've seen you twos uh one of the two songs one by U2 and this. I've seen them both ranked as best song of all time, or perhaps this was number two and that was number one, I can't remember. But anyway, in songwriting terms and in terms of the arrangement, it's a triumph, isn't it? And it's really from the heart.

SPEAKER_00: 44:51

Yeah, it is. It is from the heart. It's a beautiful arrangement. I think George Martin really added to the song with his solo. which is a sped-up piano. It's amazing. The first time they sped anything up. And it sounded like a completely different instrument, which I thought was very interesting. And while it still kind of keeps the essence of a pop song, it's not very, very deep as other songs written by John Lennon. You wouldn't say that this song could come from the Plastic Ono band, but it is the first time that you can kind of hear him going deep into or writing about his relationships.

SPEAKER_01: 45:32

It's the start of that. John said... I think In My Life was the first song that I wrote that was really consciously about my own life. A journalist was talking to John about his book in his own right, and the journalist said to John, why don't you put some of the way you write in the book, as it were, into songs? So that's what John was thinking about here.

SPEAKER_00: 45:59

Yeah, interesting. And they all put... on no no i was just going to say that it's very interesting that they never played this song live because they played some of the songs from rubber soul in their last tour um like they played what did they play nowhere man which is a much more difficult song to sing um yeah and they didn't play this song which i think would have been really nice live

SPEAKER_01: 46:21

yeah i wonder why maybe it's because the piano solo because nobody could do that certainly not at that speed

SPEAKER_00: 46:28

well yes they still change some of the songs when they play them live like they played yesterday instead of in the key of F in the key of G and it was more of an electric version I don't know if you've ever seen it from the Tokyo concert

SPEAKER_01: 46:44

I've

SPEAKER_00: 46:44

seen parts of that and they played also I think in that tour they played If I Needed Someone but I think they could have played In My Life and it would have been lovely live

SPEAKER_01: 46:55

has this song got sleigh bells on it as well in my life. Yeah, something like sleigh bells, and then Ringo's really worked on the drum part as well, so it's really a great one to listen to. Jack White from the White Stripes said it was pure genius.

SPEAKER_00: 47:15

Yeah, I think Paul has said in a couple of interviews that he helped with the lyrics as well, which I don't know whether it's true or not.

SPEAKER_01: 47:23

Could you play... Is it possible to play a bit including that wonderful piano solo? Yeah, yeah. Harpsichord.

SPEAKER_03: 48:00

Stop and think about them

SPEAKER_00: 48:30

Yeah, it's really nice. I

SPEAKER_01: 48:32

love the ending to that. Yeah, even a Beatle can't do that. Even George Martin can't do

SPEAKER_00: 48:39

that. I know, it sounds really good. And I think that's the reason why he played it like that, because he couldn't play it. Am I right? Probably. So it was possibly by accident. Yeah, like it sounded like a harpsichord by accident, but he played it slowly because he couldn't play it at normal speed.

SPEAKER_01: 49:00

Yeah, and probably the key would be easier as well, like whatever key he decided to do it in.

SPEAKER_00: 49:08

Yeah, so this raises the question, who was the fifth Beatle? Was it George Martin? Because he played with them.

SPEAKER_01: 49:16

I don't think it can be anybody else. Well, Billy Preston. Yeah. At this point, it was George Martin for sure. Yeah. Yeah. They're all entitled to be that, but George Martin has to be, right?

SPEAKER_00: 49:35

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01: 49:37

Well,

SPEAKER_00: 49:38

he wrote a lot of the arrangements and he also played with them. Did he play it on any other tracks he must have done?

SPEAKER_01: 49:48

Oh, I'd have to think about that. I would say yes, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 49:52

Okay. What do you think of Nowhere Man? I really like Nowhere Man. I'd say it's not one of my favorite songs on the album. I never really liked the arrangement or the mix on Rubber Soul, and I much prefer the one on the Yellow Submarine song track.

SPEAKER_01: 50:12

Yeah, which we've talked about, right? With the lovely... Yeah, that's the best mix, isn't it? That's the go-to one.

SPEAKER_00: 50:19

Yeah, so that made me rediscover that song. It's a great lyric, and it's a very, very good performance. Yeah, so the

SPEAKER_01: 50:30

lyric about John being stuck out in, was it Weybridge? Yeah, in the home counties. And he's got a few songs about that. He obviously felt that he was, I don't know, losing momentum out there and, you know, decaying a bit. And this is one of those songs, yeah. Along with stuff like, you know, I'm only sleeping and...

SPEAKER_00: 50:57

yes i guess the only thing i don't like very much about the song is is a guitar solo it just sounds very thin

SPEAKER_01: 51:05

um yeah it's an interesting sound that apparently john and george are doubling up yeah it's a lovely solo but yeah it could do with a little bit of eq um being taken off right on the the sort of top end it's so top end this was a single in the us um was it did you know that no i didn't know that yeah single yeah and and you know deservedly so i remember being very struck by it as a child the way that the lyrics came in without any instrumentation like that that you know i hadn't really heard anything like that before i loved it the harmonies are just fantastic

SPEAKER_00: 51:42

Yeah, interestingly enough as well, John and George had never had Fender Stratocaster guitars, and they got their first Strat for the Robber Soul sessions. They sent Mal Evans to get matching Sonic Blue Strats. At least

SPEAKER_01: 51:57

the light blue

SPEAKER_00: 51:58

ones. Yeah, and I think this is one of the first tracks where they played the Strats. Could we hear the strats or is it going to sound too trebly? I think that's the reason why the solo sounds so trebly, because of being played on the strats. I'll play a bit of it. One second. Here

SPEAKER_03: 52:22

you go. He's a real nowhere. Sitting in his nowhere land Making all his nowhere plans for nobody Doesn't have a point of view Knows not where he's going to Isn't he a bit like you?

SPEAKER_00: 53:01

So, again, I wonder why they chose to play this song live when it's so hard to sing. They could have played any other song from this album and it would have been easier to sing, even Drive My Car.

SPEAKER_01: 53:12

Maybe it's easier to play. I mean, it's a mid-tempo song, so Drive My Car would have been really hard, I guess, for them to play that funky riff and sing and not slip

SPEAKER_00: 53:28

up. Yeah, I guess so, but you can see them struggling with harmonies in the live version. There is one, I think, played in Germany, like a live version from Germany, and you can hear Paul struggling with a high harmony.

SPEAKER_01: 53:44

Right, yeah, yeah. Well, apparently it was a bit of a struggle to write, says Ian McDonald, but... Lovely, lovely production, lovely bass, and, you know, the sort of beginnings of social criticism in the lyrics, I suppose, that start of that. I mean, they hadn't written anything quite like that before.

SPEAKER_00: 54:09

Yeah. Yeah, you can tell. It must be a hard song to write.

SPEAKER_01: 54:16

Yeah, yeah. Do you think Revolver... Sorry, do you think Rubber Soul... I've got to ask you this. Do you think it's a front-loaded record?

SPEAKER_00: 54:24

In what way?

SPEAKER_01: 54:25

I mean, I know that Girl is on side two, but side one's better, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 54:31

Well, you could argue that, I guess. Well, I never thought about it that way because I was so used to the American version, and the American version has a very strong side two. You have things like It's Only Love, which I think fits very nicely in this. But you might be right, yes, the second side is much weaker than, side A is much weaker than side B. But you still have In My Life on side B, and I'm Looking Through You and Girl.

SPEAKER_01: 54:59

Yeah, yeah. So it's got some good ones. We haven't talked about any of the George songs. Yeah. Which is the best of the George ones here.

UNKNOWN: 55:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 55:09

He's got two?

SPEAKER_00: 55:10

He's got two, yeah. Think for Yourself and If I Needed Someone. I like If I Needed Someone very much because I like the sound of his 12-string guitar.

SPEAKER_01: 55:19

Yes. Apparently, that's kind of influenced by the Byrds, self-consciously stolen from their Bells of Romney, which I had to listen to just now. And yeah, it is stolen. Not the melody, but the sound and the rhythm. On a Rickenbacker 12-string guitar.

SPEAKER_00: 55:39

I thought the birds were influenced by George's sound on A Hard Day's Night as well. Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_01: 55:46

Yeah. I mean, it's George's best track to date, right? Yes, yes. I think so.

SPEAKER_00: 55:52

I think it's much nicer than Think For Yourself, although Think For Yourself has that buzz on the bass.

SPEAKER_01: 56:00

Yeah. Yeah. the lyrics quite funny i was like it's like i don't need someone it's joy call your number on my wall maybe you'll get a call from me if i needed somebody you know but i don't i kind of don't you know george is always so like distant and a bit kind of solemn i know it's crazy isn't it yeah yeah i might i might give you a call you know if i needed someone but you know I kind of don't.

SPEAKER_00: 56:34

I'll play a bit of it. Yeah, it's really nice. I like this song,

SPEAKER_01: 57:09

actually. Great harmonies again. They really made an effort. They're starting to make an effort with George's songs now on this album and taking more seriously as a songwriter.

SPEAKER_00: 57:22

I think so, but I don't think he... It wasn't until later, it wasn't until Revolver that he wrote, I think, his best tracks. There is a big difference between If I Needed Someone and... Think for yourself if you compare it to Taxman. Taxman is such a good song compared.

SPEAKER_01: 57:41

oh yeah and yeah this is the both of these follow the same kind of like there's a kind of melodic progression you know got your number on my wall and then think for yourself so although your mind's opaque try thinking more of it so the melodies are very simple very simple crotchets or whatever descending uh so yeah i think by yeah by the time he gets to taxman he's really writing something special

SPEAKER_00: 58:11

yeah definitely um what do you think about run for your life

SPEAKER_01: 58:17

well somebody posted on facebook when we said we were doing this that it was a kind of a misstep it is a it is a nice rocker uh it was the first recording for this album but it is misogynistic right i mean it's a nice kind of it's the only i would say it's the only beatles song that is nasty in that way and some people just I mean I was talking to a colleague recently he likes his music with a nasty edge he's like I want that edge you know and of course you know it is quite a turn on for people but for the Beatles, it's kind of, it is a sort of misstep, isn't it? A sort of error of judgment or something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 59:04

Well, it is a product of its time, I guess. You could say that because nobody raised these things back in the 60s. I mean, it isn't until now that people started kind of bringing that thing up, the fact that it's a misstep.

SPEAKER_01: 59:19

True. Maybe it inspired these books are made for walking. You know, And there were a lot of songs at this time about, you know, like, I'm going to really do you if, you know, do you in.

SPEAKER_00: 59:35

And the line from that song that is judged the most is the first line. I'd rather see you dead, little girl, than to be with another man. Right?

SPEAKER_01: 59:45

The sinister bit for me is, you know, that's the end.

SPEAKER_00: 59:49

The way that

SPEAKER_01: 59:51

he delivers it and it's like he's drawing his finger across his throat or something.

SPEAKER_00: 59:57

I'm a

SPEAKER_01: 59:59

violent man who regrets my violence. You can see it here.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:06

But that line, I'd rather see a dead little girl to be with another man, was taken from an Elvis song from Baby Let's Play House. Ah, okay. I did read that, but I don't know, baby. Let's play house. Yeah, it's now listen to me, baby. Try to understand. I'd rather see you dead, little girl, than to be with another man. Now, baby, come back. Baby, come. Come back. That's a really good way to get her to come back. Let's play house,

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:34

because if you don't, I'm going

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:36

to murder you. Yeah, pretty much. And nobody said that that was a misstep of Elvis'. Or maybe people have,

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:44

and I just haven't heard it. Because that was even further back in history, I guess, and people didn't care about that kind of thing. Anyway, it's a rocker, isn't it? I'm glad that they weren't all like this.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:56

Yeah, I have to say, it's not one of my favorite John songs by any means. And something interesting is that if you look at Revolver, because a lot of people compare Revolver and Rubber Soul because they're released kind of close to each other. Revolver started with Taxman and finished with Tomorrow Never Knows, so you had a great opening track and a brilliant closing track. And it wasn't exactly the case with Rover Soul. I don't think it had the best closing track.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:26

No, but it did have a brilliant opening track, didn't it? Yeah, I

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:30

mean, the opening track, you can't argue with that. Yeah, it's

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:34

not a brilliant closer. No. Yeah. I've only literally got one out of five minutes because I've got somebody coming around to buy some stereo equipment.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:46

That's fine. I think we've talked about most of the songs already and it's already been an hour.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:51

We... haven't just mentioned the cover i think it's worth just uh i think it's just worth commenting on this so the distorted image on the cover because the photo that um the photographer had taken fell over on a piece of card and they and they got leaned slightly fell and they said we like that elongated image and of course um they'd reached the stage i love the arrogance, if that's what it is, where they don't even need to put their name on the cover anymore. It just says Rubber Soul because everybody looks at those faces and they know it's the Beatles. That was cool. Yeah, that was really

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:31

cool. Is that the first time their name wasn't on the cover?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:36

I think so. Might be wrong, but I think that's the first time the name was known. And of course, the name is Paul McCartney's joke about plastic soul. You can hear them talking about it on the anthology Plastic Soul, which I believe was used to talk about Mick Jagger's singing. And so it was a phrase that was just kind of lying around, a little sort of Beatles pun. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:00

I have to say, because of the name of the album and the font, when I didn't know it, I thought it would be soul music.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:09

And some of it is. We've got Drive My Car, The Word. Some of the songs really have that soul influence, right? Yeah. Even You Won't See Me, a little bit Motown.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:27

Yeah, but I thought it would be more kind of Motown-y because of what the cover looked like to me when I was a kid, when I didn't know about the album at all.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:35

I mean, they loved Motown so much. Otis Redding heard Day Tripper and went and did his own very speeded up version of day tripper you know he obviously liked it or you know wanted to sort of repay the compliment

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:53

yeah but but yes you said it's a brilliant cover um i think this is the first cover that they forced the americans to use as well um because before that all the releases had been different and they had different covers um to to the uk releases and this is the first one where they actually made them um use the the cover design in the uk

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:14

okay yeah yeah and then of course the single is like a little it's a little um almost a miniature of the album but with the sort of we can work it out again on slightly larger themes and day trip are about this sort of complicated relationship sort of so it's interesting that yeah that would have been you know it's like the album in miniature isn't it a great little single that goes with it yeah That's great. I will have to go because I think my bell is going to ring just any minute now. That's fine. It's been great talking to you. Likewise. And I think next we're going to do the concert for Bangladesh, right? Yeah, that should be a lot of fun. That would be brilliant. Yeah, that would be great. It won't be next week because I'm... I'm busy, but perhaps in two weeks' time. Yeah, in two weeks' time. That sounds perfect.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:17

Have a lovely weekend, Bernardo.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:19

You too. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye for

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:23

now.